talking about, but the problem is, if we want to make these programs work, you have basically two answers. you can raise taxes a whole lot, or can you cut when people are expecting a whole lot. and so gee whiz, why haven't we had this discussion for the last 30 years. >> again, that's a reasonable point. and i think the solution is going to involve more tax revenue and cuts on the benefit side. that's different than the divisive framework -- i'm not saying nick brought us there. but we're into this debate that doesn't represent reality when, as you said, at some point, you're a maker, other points you're a taker. that applies to everyone. >> quickly, let me jump in. we have less than a half minute. >> one other thing. this is important. over the last 30 years, the percentage of people getting means tested benefits has gone from 17% to 30% of u.s. households. you can't say because it's people are twice as poor as 30 years ago ago.